Not that he gives a damn, but I have to give Ken Ward for this post where he calls out certain environmentalist bloggers for exaggerating their claims. The whole thing is worth a read, but…
“For example, at Daily Kos, “devilstower” writes: “…people have died because of mountaintop removal. Miners have died…We accept that flipping on the light switch comes at the price of blood. However, mountaintop removal mining has killed far more than miners. Dozens of people in surrounding communities have died when walls of black sludge plunged down on their homes. Whole families have died, Mr. President, whole towns… so that other Americans can buy their electricity some fraction of a cent more cheaply.”
To which Ward responds:
“OK … what are we talking about here? Buffalo Creek? Aberfan? Both were long before mountaintop removal really started. Maybe Jeremy Davidson, the three-year-old boy killed by a runaway rock from a strip-mine site five years ago in southwestern Virginia? That wasn’t a whole family, and it wasn’t a slurry impoundment. There are absolutely adverse health costs — and deaths — associated with coal mining. But I don’t understand that need the environmental community and its bloggers have to exaggerate. It seems to me that the science about coal’s damage sounds bad enough, without inflating it.”
Ward also disagrees with Jeff Biggers take on mountaintop removal miners. Biggers says:
Mountaintop Removal Operators Are NOT Coal Miners, But Mostly Heavy Equipment Operators (Bulldozer and Truck Drivers) Who Could Easily Be Used on Infrastructure Projects, Waterworks, Highway Projects, Genuine Reclamation and Reforestation Projects, and a Lot of Green Jobs Initiatives and Manufacturing Plants (Building Wind Turbines, Solar Panels). In fact, every mountaintop removal operator job has taken away 2-3 jobs from underground coal miners.
Spoken like a true elite who wouldn’t know a piece of coal if it hit him in the goddamn head. But hey, with certain people that’s probably a bonus. But Ward adds:
“First of all, I know guys who work on mountaintop removal mines. And it is skilled work. And they do mine coal. I don’t understand the need the environmental community has to ridicule them by saying they’re not coal miners. Where does that get anybody?
Second, I don’t know that anyone can really prove that every mountaintop removal operator job has taken away 2-3 jobs from underground miners. The industry is too complex to boil it down to that comparison — not all coal that is mined via large, multiple-seam strip mines would be mined by underground methods. Are surface mines very efficient? Yes. In some cases more efficient that underground mining? Of course. But it’s a bit of a jump from there to what Jeff writes.
Finally, sure, guys who run heavy equipment on a strip mine could also run heavy equipment cleaning up abandoned mines or doing a variety of other projects. In fact, strip-mining got its start when highway contractors were looking for easy ways to make some extra money with their equipment and workforce.
But this idea that a transition for communities in Appalachia that rely on mountaintop removal to “green energy” is going to be easy is wrong and not helpful to the debate.”
My own thoughts on coal mining in West Virgina have changed over the past few years. And a lot of this green job / clean coal bullshit is just that. West Virginia needs to have a real discussion about the future of mining, and that’s NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN if both sides are so goddamn polarized. Going around making wildly exaggerated claims serves no one, except maybe the asshat making them.
July 1, 2009 at 8:16 pm
I also though Ward’s post was a nice wake-up call.
July 1, 2009 at 9:53 pm
For some reason, I thought your next post after MJ would be the Gazette’s story today about Carte Goodwin’s flirtation with a run for Congress.
July 2, 2009 at 8:48 am
Not a bad point by Ward, but it’s as common as rain for activists to exaggerate a problem to make a point. In fact, over ONE BILLION activists exaggerate their claims over 99.9 PERCENT of the time. Heh.
I remember when I was working for Mitch Snyder back during the late 80’s, I would argue in staff meetings that trotting out fauxtoids like “there are three million homeless people in America,” and “ten thousand homeless people die every night in America” was foolish and dishonest. The consensus in the room was that it didn’t matter if it was untrue, made up out of thin air, and likely to explode in our faces. The problem was too important for little things like truth to intervene. It was stated that I was “fact addicted” and that I cared more for “academic concerns” than the homeless people we were trying to help.
Of course, eventually the contradictions and untruths caught up with Mitch. And CCNV lost a lot of credibility. Mitch hung himself.
Truth matters. I know that in the media-obsessed, 24 hours news world we’re currently living in, it seems like you can get away with peddling any line of crap, but the intentional peddling of falsehoods leads to the corrosion of good faith among your team, and your supporters. Bad faith is contagious.
July 2, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Truth is a rare commodity in this country regardless of what side of any given issue you find yourself listening to. I find it hard to believe even a lot of what I see let alone hear.
What is wrong with simply opposing MTR because it offends your aesthetics? No, it has to be insidiously killing ENTIRE VILLAGES!
BUT WHAT OF THE POOR (and essentially not real smart) MINERS? How WILL they feed their families?
Back and forth until we are all sick!
So now, few believe anything they hear.
July 2, 2009 at 10:40 pm
You know, I am somewhat surprised at how few comments there have been here…
July 2, 2009 at 10:54 pm
That makes 2 of us.
Guess I should have written that Billy Mays post after all :-)
July 2, 2009 at 11:35 pm
I am still waiting for the Daryl Hannah post. Guess you changed your mind.
July 2, 2009 at 11:37 pm
http://www.alternet.org/rss/the_wire_provided_by_huffington_post/66620/daryl_hannah:_why_i_was_arrested_in_coal_river,_west_virginia/
July 3, 2009 at 1:08 am
I think I have about 3 Daryl Hannah posts saved as drafts. It’s hard to stay focused.
July 3, 2009 at 10:40 am
three drafts. do they take three different positions on coal mining in wv? are you still deciding which one you want to take?
July 3, 2009 at 10:57 am
You should start with the fact that there’s no such place as “Coal River, West Virginia.”
July 3, 2009 at 11:58 am
Seems to me that WV will never have a real discussion about coal b/c big coal owns WV. Coal Companies have begun a propaganda campaign in public elementary schools to teach children that “coal is WV”–as for the environmental impact, the teachers note that all that is “too complicated” for the kids to understand–that should wait until maybe, high school. I was appalled when I heard the story about this on public radio.
As for green jobs, putting infrastructure (high speed internet) in place to support telecommuting would open up WV to the eastern seaboard. How many people would prefer to live in Wild Wonderful WV?
The coal will run out eventually. Shouldn’t we be thinking about conservation? Low impact living?
July 3, 2009 at 12:54 pm
On dailykos moments ago, replying to a comment by someone from Alabama mentioning that, down there, they still call it stripmining:
View Story | 183 comments | Autorefresh
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Daily Kos Help
In West Virginia, we used to be honest and… (0+ / 0-)
call it stripmining, too. Now, of course, industry apologists call it “mountaintop mining.”
The less euphemistic call it “mountaintop removal mining” (MTR).
I guess that’s the sound of one progressive hand clapping.
Just a footnote, back when it was called what it is, strip-mining, in West Virginia (1972), a young plutocratic liberal Democrat named Jay Rockefeller ran for governor against a corrupt (though this only became clear to most voters later on, when he went to federal prison for it) incumbent Republican, Arch A. Moore, on a platform of abolition of the practice.
Needless to say, Rockefeller got his ass handed to him. A few years later, in anticipation of his (successful) run for governor in 1976, he announced that he no longer opposed strip mining but did support meaningful reclamation.
The other day, he announced that he has grave reservations about the clean energy bill passed by the House of Reps.
It was clear that he will oppose the bill unless even more concessions are made to the coal industry.
If he’s smart (he’s never been accused of being a genius; he has been accused of being rich), he’ll shut the hell up.
He’s unbeatable here in WV and, besides, isn’t on the ballot again until 2014. If he leaves his vote up for grabs, he’ll give the bill some momentum on the Senate side and possibly find himself in the driver’s seat when it comes to the contents of a (profoundly even more diluted bill, of course) that might even stand a chance of passage.
A rec-listed diary titled “A President Breaks Hearts in Appalachia”:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/7/3/749468/-A-President-Breaks-Hearts-in-Appalachia
Several comments by jonimbluefaninWV:
http://www.dailykos.com/user/jonimbluefaninWV/comments
July 3, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Whatever, Rednecks. You should go back to Coal River, West Virginia.
Kidding!
July 3, 2009 at 1:49 pm
fox hunter: the opportunity is there for a credible candidate in the 2012 Democratic Party primary.
Not that he or she would win, of course.
But he/she would capture national attention in a way unseen (though not to that degree) by a political figure from the Mountain State since Senator Byrd opposed Bush on Iraq seven years ago.
And by that I do not mean the hippie, dippy, trippy Mountain Party, either.
I mean someone with credibility as a center-right WV Democrat. Someone one with the credentials of a Walt Helmick (chair Senate finance since late 2002) or a Jeff Kessler (chair senate judiciary since late 2002).
Not that someone with that kind of cred would run on an abolish MTR platform, but someone with industry cred who’d be bold enough to say, “You know what? I’m old enough and successful enough now to say it’s time we seriously discussed this state and its post-coal future.”
In addition to the national attention a credible gubernatorial candidate in WV likely would get for that kind of bluntness, it might, more important, force mushy “frontrunners” like John Perdue or Shelley Moore Capito to get off the damn dime of automatic coal industry whoredom if the discussion found any resonance in this state.
Which, I think, it would. (And even if it didn’t, the person who carved out that terrain would find himself the owner of some valuable political real estate, and, as for the state, even if the message didn’t resonate, we wouldn’t be any worse off then than we are now. Would we?)
But this will only work if it’s advanced by someone who is center or center-right credible, has a long record of elective office service in the state and has actually exercised some real power and influence over the years…and been largely a supporter of the coal industry.
Otherwise, it’s just left-lib WV group masturbation.
Sadly, I doubt that either Walt or Jeff has the bold imagination or cojones to do this.
July 3, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Well said, Redneck.
July 3, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Redneck, A real choice in the WV gubernatorial would be a welcome change. Doesn’t seem likely though.
July 3, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Jack Spadaro (former head of federal mine inspector training, mining engineer w/40 yrs experience) says mountaintop removal causes flooding.
More details about Jack & strip mining can be found at his website:
http://www.jackspadaro.com/
July 3, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Sludge & Slurry in the hills of Appalachia:
July 3, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Sarah Palin should visit Coal River, West Virginia now that she has some free time.
July 3, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Bigger’s heart’s in the right place, and he’s skilled rhetorically.
But he’s capable of making major journalistic mistakes:
Such as, in his Huffington Post piece when he assumed a fact not then or now in evidence: that Manchin or Manchin’s administration schemed in creating the coal company paper trail campaign to de-list Blair Mountain from the National Register of Historic Places.
He jumped the gun on that one, but, even so, his heart was in the right place, and his heated language was, well, scathingly heart-warming:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-biggers/wheres-the-national-outra_b_184177.html
July 3, 2009 at 8:31 pm
The idea that there’s going to be any kind of meaningful transition from coal-mining to any kind of so-called “green jobs” economy in southern West Virginia or anywhere else in the state is total bullshit.
The facts about where there are Class IV winds in the state (the Allegheny ridges in the eastern, not the southern, part of the state) tell the tale.
Wind power in West Virginia and elsewhere in the Middle Atlantic states is total bullshit in terms of the amounts potentially generated in that region and the amounts needed to make any significant dent in total energy demands projected by 2020, according to a study commissioned by the fed.
Wind power capacity exists meaningfully on the off shore Atlantic, and in the Midwestern corridor.
The rest of it, unless you’re willing to utterly sacrifice ridgetops in the Allegheny Highlands, and for a small, energy-insignificant return, simply doesn’t justify the destruction.
It’s justified neither empirically (the amount of power ultimately produced) nor aesthetically.
July 4, 2009 at 8:57 am
Redneck, I agree with you–wind power is not the future–solar is. Maybe they could put some big ole solar panels on top of those nice flat mountains we have down south. What about hydroelectric?
July 4, 2009 at 9:08 am
On a thread that reminds us that the truth does matter, and that people deserve to know and participate rather than to be exploited and trivialized -
Happy Birthday, Americans! Keep safe.
July 4, 2009 at 11:24 am
TT, I couldn’t agree more, although I think wind power is part of the answer, at least it is where there is sustainable, predictable capacity.
And even as far as adding some wind energy to this state’s energy portfolio goes, I’ll confess to ambivalence. For example, I know a beautiful overlook in one of our easternmost counties where, on a clear, see-to-forever day, you can glimpse giant wind turbines on Mount Storm (Grant County) turning with a lovely, slow grace in the far horizon.
It’s really cool.
But at the same time, I do not want to see the damn things on every other ridgetop in a special part of the state that hasn’t been desecrated by MTR if there is little real return in the amount of clean energy that the wind farms will actually contribute to national demand in the years to come.
As for jobs, wind farms don’t in fact produce many. Not in the long term past their construction. Not very damn many at all.
Now, if we as a nation go big for wind energy, there is the potential for good jobs in the turbine manufacture sector. But it’s a fact that, to date, “green jobs” are not, industry-wide, terribly good paying jobs.
So, if Obama is able to shove any green energy legislation down the Senate’s throat, we probably next as a nation need to seriously consider passing CEFA, the union-supported legislation.
It’s all of a piece, and it all requires people at the top being systems thinkers. People who see how the indvidual parts relate to a larger whole.
But I am not optimistic about where the US Senate will go on anything that yields real, significant change. And, much as I respect Jay Rock for his staunch support of a meaningful public option on health care, I’m disappointed (thus far, anyway) on his boneheadedness on energy/cap-and-trade legislation in which he’s moving in the direction of taking himself out of the game before the jump-ball gets tossed up in the Senate.
Good grief. He’s not on the ballot again until 2014! Well, as I said elsewhere, he’s never been accused of being a genius, only of being rich. As for Guv Joe, he’s never been accused of being a genius either, and it’s dismal to ponder a future in which our US Senators are either Jay and Joe or Jay and Shelley.
Wow…
July 4, 2009 at 1:29 pm
I recycle. I try to remember to pull the plug of the shredder and I turn off the computer. I turn off the lights, yet I wonder whether I use more gas taking the cardboard and plastic to be recycled. Converting recycled materials still uses energy. The little energy-saving light bulbs advocated by so many groups have toxic materials in them, but we still use them. Because of time constraints, papers to tote, and clothes that need to be worn sometimes, I drive rather than bike or use the bus (try to carpool sometimes). I try to remember to use cloth grocery bags. I wonder, though, whether these aren’t little feel-good band aids, given the amount of gas that is used in travel, especially by plane. (At least no (mass-produced) car or plane has ever been powered by coal.)
Yet I think that conservation is part of the answer. Why air condition offices in the summer? Everyone should just have a mandatory vacation, French/European style, and workers working hourly jobs should get vacations. A lot of energy could be conserved that way during the hottest days of the summer and coldest days of the winter.
Quite frankly, IMO the problem with “green” jobs for W.Va. is a relatively uneducated, backward population. Every bright college grad is outnumbered by 9 non-college grads. It was to the coal companies’ and chemical companies’ advantage to keep the population backward, uneducated and subservient. This does not make for easy adaptation into a modern, skilled workforce (and guess what – even if this work force is in place, companies will go to India and China and E. Europe because the work can be done cheaper there). It isn’t clear to me whether “green jobs” are white-collar ones or blue-collar ones, skilled or unskilled.
W. Va.’s environment has been destroyed by coal companies — the mountainous part of Va., for instance, is just as scenic and probably less damaged than Va. (Thankfully, Decker’s Creek, through the efforts of dedicated activists, is no longer orange.) A large part of the population has been brainwashed by Big Coal, which subsidizes little league baseball, college scholarship, etc., and hires the big law firms to fight black lung claims.
I see hope for the US as a whole with respect to clean energy — I agree with your assessment, Rednecks. W. Va. could just increase its dependence on federal money with its disproportionately aged, uneducated, and disabled population, and do some more clean coal alchemy with federal funds. I’d be very curious to see the amount of $ in W.Va.’s economy that comes from coal versus the amount that comes from the federal government.
July 4, 2009 at 6:00 pm
QFE
You’re exactly right. Now just try telling that to the crowd of Charleston people who act like we’re one minor law or federal grant from becoming the most awesomest place eveh. All the cargo-cult economic development in the world won’t change the fact that the vast majority of West Virginia’s work force is dumber than a sled track.
July 4, 2009 at 6:52 pm
As you probably have sussed out by now, I put the blame at the feet of history. An extractive economy is generally dominated by a few, well-placed families, and everyone else is trained to be either their satraps, house slaves, or field hands.
Since you’ll always need more field hands than anything else, it doesn’t make sense to aim your educational system at independent thought or critical analysis. That’ll only “give them kids ideas,” as the folks I knew used to say. Instead you teach obedience, punctuality, and unquestioning loyalty. That’s what you need in a chemical plant worker or a (pre-1986) coal miner.
The probelm here is that the extractive economy has outworn its economic utility. The question of the day is, “What comes next?” What is needed now, in the transitional period, is vision. And here, that can be very hard to come by.
July 5, 2009 at 6:02 am
Right, folks. What West Virginia needs is less “Generation Charleston” and more mass emigration. This wouldn’t be a half-bad place if it had a largely fully employed population of a couple hundred thousand.
July 5, 2009 at 6:56 am
It seems that Generation Charleston, Morgantown, and others are ways to attract those other educated folks. Without that type of core group of educated, energetic folks, WV will never do that. Well, that’s not quite true, it will be possible to attract educated retirees, another way to begin to demand more of our state.
July 5, 2009 at 11:21 am
It’s Cocteau’s birthday. And the day that SPAM (either “Spiced Ham,” “Shoulder of Pork and Ham,” or “Something Posing As Meat,” depending on who you believe.) was first presented to (or foisted upon) the general public.
In honor of the occassion, I present the pataphysical composition, “Le testament d’Orphée, avec SPAM.”
…lights up on a diner filled with the dread of the ordinary, sundered from human feeling by a thick layer of linoleum, chrome, and fish oil. A man in a tweed cap, his back bent under the burden of negation, speaks to a waitress, transcendant in her ugliness…
“I’ll ‘ave yours then. I love it! I’m ‘avin the Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Surrealism, Crypto-Catholicism, Spam, FISH!, Spam an’ Spam…”
“SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM…”
“Shaddap!…Bloody Postmodernist Vikings…”
July 5, 2009 at 11:51 am
Have you been up all night? That was great!
July 5, 2009 at 12:02 pm
I just read an article, yesterday, I think — in the DP, I believe, taken over from one of the major papers or wire services on entertaining with spam in this economy. . . and pouring old the brand-name booze and filling the bottles with cheaper stuff, and your guests then won’t be able to tell that the Virginia ham in the puff pastry was replaced by spam. . .
My problem with groups like generation Morgantown is this: why not have people leave and then come back (or are the sponsors worried that once people leave they will never come back)? It’s good for young people to travel, to meet new people, experience new places — that’s how people grow, and that’s why major corporations shuffle their execs every few years, so that they don’t end up with entrenched in-groups, a problem that plagues this state. I’m way too old to join, but going to Mo’town’s upscale bars is not my idea of a good time.
July 5, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Dam right ole Cyberpaw can write up a storm!
But here’s some progress for y’all: I nailed Daryl Hannah.
July 5, 2009 at 12:17 pm
I was saying on the phone yesterday that such a coal mining debate should happen. Ladies and gentlemen, this green jobs jargon has got to be put in real terms – this is not a nation made up of one sector: green jobs, creative class, IT, financial sector ——- it’s all of them.
Appalachia does not have the educated work force to do any of those things as an alternative to mining. People mine for two reasons: There is coal there, and it pays to do it. Your school system educates many of these kids to just that level.
All of these goofy movements created by upper-middle class Southhills people (because they have nothing to do), need to focus their energies in honest dialogues (Vision Impaired, Castrate West Virginia)….why don’t we talk about how to mine the coal and preserve the environment…how to educate our citizenry to the level of productivity so that they can create their own jobs, etc.
W.Va is solely dependent upon coal and government. Let’s be honest about this.
But, especially on this most important holiday, if you are waiting on government to fix the state…and the state of your life…..then, sadly, you are not free and are making a mockery of what this day really means.
July 5, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Jessco, did you use the Hillbilly Mating Call to lure Daryl? Mountain Daddy, propose some alternatives to VI and CWV (did you design websites yet?).
July 5, 2009 at 7:09 pm
What Mountain Daddy said.
July 5, 2009 at 7:25 pm
“But, especially on this most important holiday, if you are waiting on government to fix the state…and the state of your life…..then, sadly, you are not free and are making a mockery of what this day really means.”
Well said.
July 6, 2009 at 12:02 am
Living in North Central WV, we don’t experience the effects or bonuses of MTR. We don’t experience seeing the change in our state’s vistas and we don’t have a sense of our water quality changing. Also, we don’t count on the continued success of Massey to make our house payments. Here, we can only hope that what is best for the masses is best for West Virginia. I don’t want to say we don’t have a dog in this fight, but many of us up here don’t know which dog to root for.
Gotta go now, Ice Road Truckers is on.
July 6, 2009 at 10:42 am
As to industrial wind energy being a panacea or any kind of meaningful alternative to coal in central Appalachia, here’s a wake-up coal to coalfield liberals, in South Hills or elsewhere:
“… It would require hundreds of miles of ridgeline wind turbine development to offset the need for even one relatively small coal-fired power plant.”
Statement by Rick Webb, UVA faculty scientist and member of the National Academies of Science committeel which published the results of a detailed, impartial study of wind energy development in the Middle Atlantic (Allegheny Highlands in WV, VA, MD and PA). That where Class IV winds are to be found in this part of the US. I believe it’s a fact that the winds in southern WV coalfields area tend to be of the Class III. variety.
The NAS study was Congressionally commissioned and supported by Mollohan & Rahall. NAS looked at across-the-board environmental impacts in the Middle Atlantic region and concluded that even prolific development of industrial wind energy in that part of the US would offset projected out-year energy demands only by an almost infinitesimal fraction.
As for job creation, there would be plenty of good jobs in the turbine construction phase (that’s why labor unions support wind energy development in WV) but not so much at all after the turbines are up and running (and running erratically at best during periods of peak demand on the eastern seaboard when the air conditioners are humming in Jersey, say industrial wind energy critics). The upside, however, is that industrial-scale windfarms are low-cost to maintain once they’re up and running, but they are not jobs-intensive. Go to Backbone Mtn. in Tucker County or Mount Storm in Grant County and find out how many people are employed there by operating wind farms.
It’s important to enter into these kinds of policy discussions eyes wide open about long- and short-term economic and environmental impacts and trade-offs.
I’m not saying industrial wind energy development in West Virginia’s a complete loser, but it’s a far more complicated and controversial proposal than its most dedicated proponents let on.
I rather like fox hunter’s idea about solar panels on MTR sites, although I know far less about solar than wind. Maybe it’s like wind in that at first blush it’s a feel-good, sounds-good thing that’s less attractive the more you come to find out. Still, it’s an intriguing concept.
July 6, 2009 at 11:23 am
Pretty good piece by Devilstower on Daily Kos today about RFK Jr.’s call for Obama to visit Appalachia to learn about the horror, the horror of MTR. But it’s the comments that are telling. When anyone questions jobs or other aspects of economic impact, so many kneejerk answers are “wind power,” “solar power,” “massive worker retraining for green energy” and some seem to think that private companies can simply be urged or maybe ordered to go put up wind turbines or solar panels or who knows what else on MTR sites and they’ll do it. Some others just flat out admit they hate West Virginia. Interesting.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/7/5/749478/-RFK-JrPresident-Obama-should-go-to-Appalachia
July 6, 2009 at 7:10 pm
One of the things I like about this blog is people say things and I find myself thinking about their comments a lot…especially when I’m drinking chardonnay. My instinct is to jump in and say “yes, the WV workforce is dumb as a sled track” as HK says, but I’m one of those natives who left and came back so I have some perspective. There have been efforts to raise the educational level of West Virginians. Promise goes a long way in changing the culture about the value of a college education. Manchin had a little success in cutting back the benefit but the principal is still there thanks to the legislature. I know I know…these are young people and not reprsentative of the “dumb” workforce but Gov. Wise did one good thing when he was in office.
I’m not ready to make fun of Generation WV or any group that encourages networking among the young and educated who decide to stay. Maybe they meet in a bar (who didn’t at that age) but they’re trying to build a community that normally ups and leaves.
The debate about the future of coal, wind, etc. is a good one and I wish it were happening more in the open instead of every politician being afraid as branded “NOT a friend of coal.” I was thinking the same thing many of you posted–should we plan for life after coal rather than harness all our efforts to stop this environmental trend. Think about Virginia, Maryland, and North Carolina and how hard they fought any restrictions on tobacco. Eventually they had to accept it.
July 6, 2009 at 8:20 pm
I’m definitely not criticizing any West Virginia group that meets in a bar — at any age.
July 6, 2009 at 9:01 pm
WV Native2: Not you but, as opposed to the many comments made when drinking Chardonnay and not thinking?
:)
‘bot: I’m sure “Jesco” wholeheartedly agrees. I know I do.
Have to say, my close encounters with Generation Next types have been hellish: Nervously self-conscious neo-Yuppies worried they’re being culturally Left Behind here in WV. Devoted Young Ken “Hands Across America” Kragen readers of The State Journal doing their gol-darnedest to Make Lemonade Out of Lemons!
July 6, 2009 at 10:35 pm
rednecks for Obama, you may need more close encounters with Gen Next types. That’s a helluva stereotype you have there.
July 7, 2009 at 5:57 am
what I want to know is, Lawbot, since little Kelly came, have you really given up the Friday night sixpack? I’m going to guess the answer is no. (do I have to put a smiley face here? because I don’t do smiley faces, generally)
July 7, 2009 at 8:37 am
The wife and I split one.
July 7, 2009 at 10:06 am
The promise scholarship was a mess because it did little to encourage any of it’s recipients to stay here long term. I know a lot of people who went to college on the promise and promptly hauled ass out of here to find a job in Virginia, North Carolina, or other parts unknown.
Generation Charleston and all those similar young professionals groups do a lot to keep folks that are already here, here, but those groups aren’t the answer to the brain drain our state has faced in recent years. Smart people who don’t have some personal reason to stay are still going to haul ass out of here as soon as they need to find a job.
Life beyond the Coal/Government/Schools/Walmart economy is possible, but not until our state becomes more business friendly. North Carolina was able to survive the downturn in big tobacco and textiles through positioning themselves as a easy and profitable place to do business. Heck you see more WVU bumper stickers in Charlotte than you do in Charleston.
Once you position your state as a profitable place to do business, you attract educated people and you retain the educated people your schools were already generating. The free spending legislature, business-suing attorney general, and huge number of people in WV living on public assistance which is paid for through taxes on business aren’t going to like that, but until we make this state a place where companies want to do business instead of a place they fear, we are going to continue to have problems generating the types of jobs that attract talented educated people.
July 7, 2009 at 11:16 am
I visited Charleston in daylight for the first time!
I ate baked spaghetti at Genos.
I walked next to the river.
I drove over a hill to the south, the road narrowed considerably and the widened again to take me to….nothing.
I couldn’t find an unlocked public bathroom anyplace!
I couldn’t find a bookstore anywhere else-so I paid to park (odd at a mall) and went to the mall.
If I were just starting out, I would move too. To someplace with things to do and places to park. Oh yeah, and bathrooms.
July 7, 2009 at 11:20 am
@ Demosthenes
What do you have in mind to make our state more “business friendly?”
July 7, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Sure you have to pay to park at the mall, and its management wonders why it’s losing customers in droves to Southridge and Trace Fork, which, despite their obvious drawbacks, don’t charge anyone to park anyplace.
Several years ago, when Jay Goldman was mayor, he started the practice of not requiring people to pay parking meters on the Saturdays in December, presumably to encourage people to come to Charleston to shop.
I’ve got news for Goldman and for his successor, Danny Jones, our version of Rudy Giuliani: wiping out $.25 for 15 or 30 minutes of parking isn’t going to encourage anyone to come to Charleston to shop or for any other purpose, whether it’s December or any other month.
And these people really think they’re making a difference.
July 7, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Cyberpaw: Bringing our outdated tax code into the 21st Century. Get rid of the personal property tax on business equipment and inventory, like Ohio just did. Our state Corporate income tax is also a lot higher than the national average. Of course, to make up the cash our state would lose we would need to wean the state legislature off of all their pet pork projects.
The “paying to park at the mall” is a great analogy: Businesses have to pay just to park their equipment in WV through the personal property tax. You aren’t going to pay $1.50 to park at the mall when southridge is out there for free, and you aren’t going to build a manufacturing facility in WV when there are a bunch of other states that have more favorable tax structure and equally cheap labor.
July 7, 2009 at 4:08 pm
If Walmart was downtown, you’d have to pay to park there too. But it’s not. Look, I don’t like paying to park either, but there simply aren’t enough spaces to go around. So you charge. People are almost talking like Charleston is the only place in the world that does this.
July 7, 2009 at 4:22 pm
My point is not about the supply and demand of parking spaces. It’s about the fact that the mall, which has been a downhill slide for a few years (check out the vacancies if you don’t think so), charges for parking, while the larger developments, which seem to attract more business, do not.
And it’s not only an issue of urban versus rural. The Rashids and Mike Staenberg wouldn’t think twice of charging for parking if they thought they could get away with it. But they would rather give people a reason to come to them than a reason to go elsewhere.
July 7, 2009 at 4:33 pm
But you’re acting like the mall is on a downhill slide because it charges for parking, when it is not. Malls all across the country are in much worse shape, even the ones with plenty of free parking. It’s a the recession. People don’t have money to spend at Macy’s / Dip n’ Dots / Crabtree, So they go to Walmart.
July 7, 2009 at 5:11 pm
What about geography as a drawback to business-friendly environment? It is so much easier to haul goods where the terrain is flat, and where you have ports. Mountainous areas are generally poor – the only exception I can think of is Switzerland (where the rural areas used to be fairly poor in past centuries too).
I totally agree with d.or.l regarding W. Va’s business tax structure – it’s ridiculous. I had to laugh when the form asked how many sheep, etc. I have in my business. All the forms are designed with a farm economy in mind. I dread having to do the depreciation tables on my trusty office computer, cca 2000, which works just fine if I turn off the power and turn it on again. I tried to explain to someone at the assessor’s office that I inherited someone else’s old books that I have not had a chance to recycle yet, and that all my reference books are out of date because I do research online, and I was advised to value them at $30 rather than at 0. Whatever.
If a place is a good place for young professionals, they will stay regardless of initiatives designed to persuade them to stay. WV is beautiful where the mountains haven’t been taken off yet, and uncrowded, but there is a reason for the second.
July 7, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Ah, yes. I received my sheep and goat count property tax form in the mail this very afternoon. At first, I was despondent about the tax liability my frenimals would incur, but then I realized I must report only those of BREEDING age! Huzzah!
July 7, 2009 at 8:14 pm
I started reading this blog one year ago and looking back what continues to strike me is how symbolic the Garrison mess is of West Virginia’s problems. Nepotism, you betcha; kowtowing to the powerful and connected, check; cover your ass as standard operating procedure, yessir; and a stubborn refusal to engage with reality, had that covered too. The same self-destructive traits are there whenever West Virginia’s financial, social, and economic future is discussed and because of that I can’t see any of the current political hacks having the political will, courage, or foresight to honestly discuss what has happened, is happening to our state. The same sad speeches, tax boondoggles, and goofy marketing slogans are trotted out every political season for our amusement, all without a shred of reality. Take my hometown for example, it’s a medium sized Ohio River town that was decimated by the seventies economic downturn and has never really recovered. Since then we’ve tried parking garages, which failed because no one comes downtown if there’s no businesses. Beautification, nice but planting pear trees only highlights how sad and empty the store fronts are. Each of these ideas was well intentioned and did make small improvements to the city, but none of them really addressed the urgent long-term demographic trends that are slowly killing our town. No one talks about the aging population, the growing poverty and subsequent changes to the tax base, the falling levels of home ownership, the persistent brain drain, and the politically self-destructive pig-headedness of some of the town’s old boy network. Until these problems are honestly discussed and addressed I think our little burg is heading for the dust heap of history.
Sure, Generation WV (sounds like a marketing catchphrase) is a start, but it takes more that cargo cult marketing hocus-pocus and roving bands of bloggers to save us.
Parking at the Mall, oh I’ve got an even better one!! How about parking meters at the local branch of DHHR!! That’s certainly symbolic of something…
July 7, 2009 at 8:38 pm
damn. and i reported all of mine.
July 7, 2009 at 8:56 pm
TT: My experience with “Next Gen” types may be (fortunately?) limited. But, somehow, the ones I’ve met reek with the stench of stale State Journal newsprint like week-old dead fish. Even if they aren’t (aging) Young Republicans, they smell like putrid new manifestations of an Up With People! mindset … only in West Virginia, 40 years later.
Maybe you’re in Morgantown. Or in one of the state’s other tiny cultural oases, such as South Hills.
If so, wonderful for you.
But, need I remind you or anyone else of the basic, incontrovertible social and political facts regarding this state’s increasingly aging, low-education-level, monochromatic (minimalistic white) demographic?
July 7, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Waaah! Now I am depressed.
July 7, 2009 at 9:33 pm
I don’t mean to sound like Robert Florida here, but WV has the wrong demographics to attract young people and keep them here. Every town needs educated, creative people between the ages of 18-45. Those are your artists, engineers, IT folks, writers, lawyers (yes them), architects etc. The guys who make loud annoying music, open new innovative businesses, write books, organize art events, and just generally make life interesting. Outside of the university towns and maybe Charleston those people don’t exist in your typical WV town. Not to sound like a bitter old crank, but it was better 20 years ago. Now all the interesting bars, venues have either closed or been turned into lotto joints.
July 7, 2009 at 9:49 pm
I think it’s Richard, and he is a pompous ass. I never was sure what made him the expert.
And I disagree with your assessment of WV towns. Lots of them have what it takes to be great communities of the type you describe.
July 7, 2009 at 9:52 pm
As for pretentiousness.or.pomposity…uh, I mean “demosthenes.or.locke.”: are you seriously positing West Virginia as an economic (or any other kind of ) equivalent to North Carolina?
Really?
If you are, I apologize here and now, but only if you’re prepared to share some of your really nice drugs with me.
Where to start?
Let’s go here: Atlantic Ocean seafront? Them, yes; us, lol.
Nice mountains: draw (although they have in the state’s Smokey Mountains, westernmost, Tennessee-bordering quadrant a really cool, artsy “little” city like Asheville (home of Thomas Wolfe [more on that later] while we have…Charleston? Beckley, maybe?).
Universities: Them (research triangle, UNC, Duke, NC State), Us (I-79 from Fairmont to Morgantown, home of The Mountaineers). Let’s not even debate the relative merits of schools like Appalachian and Concord, okay?
Okay. Let’s give West Virginia a fighting chance: Alex, the category is “Sports Heroes,” for a hundred!
UNC: Michael Jordan (plus numerous national titles for UNC, Duke and NC State) and Lawrence Taylor; Duke, too numerous to mention; NC State, plenty; WVU (no national football or basketball titles) but Jerry West and Sam Huff (this, to me, is our most competitive category [from a long ago era] …Which is extremely telling).
Writers: Them (Wolfe); us (Pearl Buck? [marginal as our claims on her are? OK. Not Pearl then, but … Breece Pancake? the good but overrated chick from Buckhannon?)
Okay, let’s talk teevee, pop culture’s ultimate test, the heavyweight match… them: Andy of Mayberry (Griffith, born Mount Airy, NC); us: Barney (Don Knotts, Morgantown).
I rest my (superficial) case.
The rude fact is that WV is in no way comparable–educationally, economically, aesthetically, socially, culturally, historically–to North Carolina.
Facts. Not bullshit. Facts.
July 7, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Yeah, it’s Richard and while I agree with some of his ideas he suffers a bit from Thomas Friedman syndrome, reducing complex problems to a few simplistic themes.
I don’t doubt that what you say is true and I can think of a few places that are going in the right direction, unfortunately I don’t live in one.
I really hate Friedman by the way.
July 7, 2009 at 10:38 pm
demosthenes @ 10:06
“Smart people who don’t have some personal reason to stay are still going to haul ass out of here as soon as they need to find a job.”
I am one of a large number from my high school graduating class who left W. Va. as young adults. I can’t think of any one of my friends who left who did not have at least a BA degree, and many had earned advanced degrees, as did I. (And yes, we truly earned them.) Many have excelled in military and government service. Most everyone among my friends who left doubled their WV salary levels in a very short time, and they have had exponential growth from that point forward. While money is not everything, having a decent living is something we all want.
The month that I earned my master’s degree in WV, I was offered a great job in a state with no income tax, no car inspection, and no personal property tax on my car. Once in my new home, my car insurance went down, and groceries and utilities were cheaper. Understand that I came from a low income home in WV. I thought I had hit the jack pot, though I was at what was an entry level professional salary in my new state. Like many young people whose dreams have been stunted, my initial big economic goal for myself was to pay off my car and to have enough money to drive home if I failed. I look back in wonder at that.
I was able to grow in my new job, and I have been rewarded for my work both financially and professionally over the years. I was and am convinced that none of this was possible for me in W. Va. I love West Virginia, but I found it impossible to stay and build a future. I have felt guilty about it at times, since I might have remained in WV where my work might have benefitted my own people. At a minimum, I might have helped to vote better people into office.
Of course, my ability to contribute had I stayed would have been conditioned by the extent to which the powers that be would have allowed someone like me to contribute, which is questionable given my marked lack of connections of the right political or social nature that seem to be key for many to get ahead there.
How much of our personal hopes, dreams, and talents are West Virginians supposed to sacrifice? My WV roots are deep, with a great great grandfather born in Kanawha County in 1810. Yet, I ended up leaving in my early 30s, and sending money home over many intervening years to support elderly relatives with dollars that I would never have been able to earn had I remained in WV.
Since leaving WV, I have most closely identified with people who come to the US from third-world counties. We all feel a measure of guilt for leaving our home land and culture behind, and we do what we can to help relatives back home and to support improvements to the conditions in our homeplaces.
I think most of us are forever torn. No place else will ever feel quite so much like home, and yet we no longer fit in. We truly cannot go home again and be happy. So we read Hippie Killer’s Fifth Column, sing the W. Va. Hills on June 20 every year, and raise hell when someone tries to compromise our alma mater’s integrity, since it provided the path to a better life for us.
What would I say to a young person in WV today, knowing what I know about WV and the rest of the nation? I would urge him or her to get out at a young age before too much binds him or her there, add to your education, and try building a career elsewhere. If WV calls to you, buy a vacation or summer retirement home. If you end up wanting to come home sooner rather than later, remember that the road runs back to WV, just as surely as it crosses the state line going out.
Lastly, having worked outside of WV for a quarter century and hired many people over the years, I can tell you that many employers love to hire West Virginians. They work harder, longer and are more appreciative of opportunity than anyone else, other than immigrants from poor countries. Many supervisors have commented to me about that. There is simply no employee who will give more to the job than someone who just left West Virginia. That is bittersweet to observe.
What a shame that it is so difficult to unite personal hopes and dreams with the needs that WV has to build its future. Maybe new leadership will emerge that will figure out a way to make that happen. I truly hope so.
July 7, 2009 at 11:01 pm
HK,
I agree that shopping malls nationally are in bad shape, which reinforces my point that if you charge for parking and your competitors don’t, you’re giving people another reason not to shop with you and you’re going to lose business.
And $1.50 for parking may not sound like much, but if you’re coming from the southern part of the state on 119, that amount, plus the additional mileage, traffic, etc., means you’ll pull in to Southridge or Trace Fork.
What bothers me is Charleston’s mindset that we should be glad to pay for parking at the mall because it has so much to offer. It doesn’t and it hasn’t for several years.
July 7, 2009 at 11:10 pm
@ 70’s Grad
I love you for sharing your story, and I hate you for reminding me what a SUCKER I’ve been for staying. LOL. I have a bar license in two other states and two foriegn countries. But still, I’m here. I really don’t know why.
July 8, 2009 at 12:24 am
I don’t think anyone should feel the least little bit guilty for leaving WV. I’m asking — is this a uniquely West Virginia thing, feeling bad that you left because there was no future here? Because I think it is.
The fact is that as long as you’re here, your options are severely limited for all sorts of reasons. And that’s fine, depending upon what you want to do. But there is a stigma attached to leaving. And that’s what drives me nuts. I think it has something to do with people not wanting to admit that yes, options are limited here. Typical defensive West Virginia. I think there are are a lot of people who think that by god, I’m happy here, so why can’t you just be happy here? God forbid if you don’t want to do like your daddy done. As I’ve said before, there are people who act like in the end, they’re going to get a medal or something just for sticking it out. They think that suffering buys them something. And they’re wrong.
But if you dare insinuate that maybe your odds would be better somewhere else, people totally lose their shit. Like the time I said that most people in the entertainment industry come from New York and LA because that’s where the business is — just like how most coal miners come from the motherfucking coal fields, and I-bankers from Connecticut or whatever. But predictably, some people weren’t likin’ it.
July 8, 2009 at 6:29 am
In the words of the Dean of the School of Medicine at WVU, “west virginia is the biggest elephant burying ground in the country”
July 8, 2009 at 7:02 am
HK, I agree that those of us who left shouldn’t feel guilty, but many of us do. It is not a rational thing, and I am not entirely sure why we feel this way. I have not observed the same sense of guilt in people from other states, only from people from poor nations who are immigrants.
Maybe therein lies the key. WV has a lot in common with third world countries, so is it any wonder we might feel as those people do? I moved to a state where people have the mind set that anything is possible and that the community deserves and will work together to achieve world class conditions. That change in mindset was the biggest adjustment of all for me to make when I moved here. And it was the most freeing.
CyberPaw, many people take for granted that they will live where they grow up and have family, and they don’t stop to question that. Economic conditions in WV forced many of us to do something that was very hard to do: uprooting our lives and taking a huge risk. Something has to push most of us to do that at a time when we can make the leap and are young enough to feel that we might be invincible.
I work for an organization that has several thousand employees from all over the country. I bet the West Virginians are the only ones who know the others from their home state. We are like an ex-pat community abroad, and if nothing else, the flying WV logos on our cars help us to connect.
July 8, 2009 at 9:51 am
Rednecks for Obama: Pointing out NC’s inherent advantages only strengthens my argument that WV needs to become more investment friendly if it wants to survive economically. If we don’t have those advantages, what do we have to offer? We can offer an investment friendly tax structure and legal system that makes our state a more appealing place to do business, OR we can sit on our hands and wait for coal to die, and continue being a “third world state.”
July 8, 2009 at 10:40 am
I never thought I would end up living in the state in which I was born because I really wanted to live elsewhere away from my fundamentalist parents and community. Now I live here in WV, the place everyone else is trying to leave. Go figure.
July 8, 2009 at 12:00 pm
“….politically self-destructive pig-headedness of some of the town’s old boy network.”I concur with pumpkinhead, this is the root of WV’s problems.
Y’all are making me depressed that I chose to live WV, starting to wonder what is wrong with me….
July 8, 2009 at 9:43 pm
It’s okay, Looselips. I’m in the same boat. At least you didn’t attend a private school that I swear to God gave extra credit to kids who had the balls to fake speaking in tongues.
July 8, 2009 at 9:46 pm
Fox Hunter, despair not: some of us look on this time in our lives as West Virginians as pretty good training for other things. I’ve honestly sat in interviews in which folks responded to “I was a West Virginia litigator” with looks that connoted either respect or concern that security should be called.
Either was appropriate, turns out. Either way, I’ve eaten more free food on top of Big Pink than I care to recall.
July 8, 2009 at 10:35 pm
what;s Big Pink, Lawbot? You made me laugh – hope your nubile sheep and goats are doing well.
This thread got me thinking about good things about living in WV, in no particular order:
Gabe’s on a good day (the Morgantown one, not Prickett’s Fort or Clarksburg;
Realizing how lucky you are to be living a middle-class existence;
Inexpensive office space with 1930s ambience;
Flowers, shrubs and trees once spring starts, in the summer, and in autumn;
The view of the mountains off route 7 approaching Kingwood;
Public employees who are really nice the majority of the time, especially in the small towns;
All the people and organizations who help the poor, the homeless, the abused, and the mentally ill;
Rail-trail;
Not really being affected by the economic crisis that much because living in W.Va. spares you from having surplus income to invest, and you’re used to the fact that there aren’t many jobs out there.
and the bad
Hot Spots on every corner, and the ills that gambling addiction can cause;
People who feel that the only way to have a good time is to go from bar to bar all evening long;
Lack of museums;
The long trip to the airport;
Lousy road maintenance in the winter (and year round);
Not being able to go anywhere when right before and after the game on football Saturdays;
Lack of decent places to swim outdoors in the summer;
Traffic downtown when WVU is in session;
The tower of the new Longview power plant;
Knowing that coal smoke from the above and from the Beechurst power plant is bad for you;
The appalling indifference to worker safety exhibited by local employers;
Indifference to outside world, especially outside the US.
July 8, 2009 at 10:36 pm
My family religion variety didn’t speak in tongues but I have heard it done several times and it scared the hell out of me. Are these people just hysterical? I don’t think I would be able to fake that even if I were drunk, stoned, and hysterical.
July 9, 2009 at 12:16 am
I think the people who are speaking in tounges are just galooming darazi gastraphods an maraflooms.
July 9, 2009 at 6:41 am
of course, I have never been stoned. well, maybe, just once. I just didn’t like it much. It made me sleepy.
Cyberpaw: Did you know that studies have shown that there is a direct correlation between people who speak in tongues and auctioneers.
July 9, 2009 at 7:19 am
Interesting observations –
How we are raised does become a lasting mindset, whether embraced or used as a stepping stone to change. My parents were first gen. Americans, so I had old country grandparents who had worse things to leave behind. They did not feel guilt or reminisce – they came here for a new life, often changing their names in the process. They also experienced the ethnic prejudice that different white groups inflicted on each other at the time. It was a bigger deal 50 years ago to marry out of one’s religion or social class. But the mind set was that America could do no wrong and was a wonderful place. Education was encouraged.
My parents came from a neighboring state for jobs in WV at the time, plus all those GI post war benefits for housing. I lived in a couple other states and we came back for a job opportunity. We did not have a sense of the disadvantages of living in WV until we raised our own family, and ended up with so much state employment. So we are getting it at the other end of the continuum. Everything costs more here, services are limited, and the business environment differences can be seen just across our many interstate borders.
July 9, 2009 at 8:17 am
Thanks Lawbot & Observer, I am feeling a bit better now. But back to this thread–what will it take to get straight facts & a new economy for WV that is not based on extractive industry?
I think one thing that would help is high speed internet. Access to such technology in every holler would, perhaps, faciliate an influx of, in pumpkinhead’s words, “artists, engineers, IT folks, writers, lawyers (yes them), architects etc. The guys who make loud annoying music, open new innovative businesses, write books, organize art events, and just generally make life interesting.”
Creative folks like to live in beautiful places & WV certainly has its share of those. I know a guy who moved here thinking he would be able to telecommute & visit the home office only once every month or so. Then he found out the house he built only had access to dial up service & he ended up having to rent an office in town & drive there to get high speed access. Now days, you can get sattelite service, but that is still pretty pricey.
July 9, 2009 at 9:11 am
I was going to write this yesterday, before the other feel-good comments, so I’m not simply going from the flow. This is from the heart.
Yesterday was a picture-perfect mid-summer day in the eastern mountains of West Virginia. I drove from near the Virginia border over a bunch of big mountains in the heart of the Mon National Forest all the way to Elkins then over Cheat Mountain (big mountain w/Snowshoe perced on one of it’s peaks that’s not just straight up and down, it’s a beautiful Rt. 250 plateau drive for several miles up on top).
The beauty up there is stunning. As for the down-in-the-valleys part of the drive, the farms are immaculately manicured, and it’s say season. That remarkable scent of cut hay is in the air, and it’s intoxicating. Kramer from Seinfeld would want to make it an odd perfume.
In Elkins, I impulse bought what is arguably the greatest album ever–The Beatles’ White Album–and then went to a bar-restaurant and had a few drinks.
Listening to the songs on the last leg of my drive was the perfect counterpoint to a perfect, shimmering summer day in West Virginia. Plus, my job is such that I interact a little bit with people along the way. Good ol’ “real America” regular West Virginia people. Sometimes I see them in the Wal-Mart and see an ugly, offensive abstraction. Then you deal with them up close and personal and you’re reminded how goddam good and common sense smart they are.
West Virginians are like Texans and probably Alaskans, too, in a way, with our strong sense of identity who we are that’s in no small way by us against every other damn body on the outside. That’s got its horrid side (when it’s manipulated by crooked politicians and the Overlord boo-jwah-zee), but it’s got an upside, too, dammit, and that good side is the “redneck” part of me, I hope.
Bottom line, I wouldn’t have traded the shimmering, immaculate perfection of yesterday in West Virginia for being any other place in the world.
I grew up here with a profound ambivalence: I love this place, and I hate this place. That critical tension has in no small way defined and shaped my life, and certainly informed my attitudes on all things.
July 9, 2009 at 9:20 am
“I grew up here with a profound ambivalence: I love this place, and I hate this place. That critical tension has in no small way defined and shaped my life, and certainly informed my attitudes on all things.”
Very, very well put, RFO. You moved me.
July 9, 2009 at 10:17 am
Thanks, cyberpaw. It’s true, too. Ambivalence doesn’t begin to describe the intensity of the conflicting feelings, either.
Maybe it’s what being married to Lindsay Lohan would be like.
July 9, 2009 at 11:21 am
Ambivalence? For West Virginia? You mean…inspired by things like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjc7Jg_gMy0
Mountain Madness: Invasion of The Coal Thugs
July 9, 2009 at 12:37 pm
anonymous, thanks for sharing that link. Though I left W. Va., I am not ambivalent about it, and the video helps to underline why.
It reminds me of my dad’s experience as a kid in the coal camps down in Putnam County, in the days when there were deep mines operating there. I was studying W. Va. history at WVU in the 1970s, and I asked Dad if he ever saw a Baldwin Felts guard.
He told me he remembered Mother Jones coming through, having nothing but brown beans and corn meal to eat for one entire winter, and standing in the road in front of their company house as a small boy when a Baldwin Felts thug pulled up in a car, stopped a union man, and beat him to death with a tire iron right in front of his eyes.
Is it any wonder that he took a very dangerous job in a Kanawha Valley chemical plant to escape that life? The focus of his entire family was on finding a way to get out of the mines.
It’s hard to feel ambivalent about such open warfare, then and now.
July 9, 2009 at 2:16 pm
@ Cyberpaw
If you haven’t already, you might want to read this research paper – “Textual Reproduction of Ethnicity in the Kanawha Valley: The 1974 Textbook Controversy Revisited” by Carol Mason, Ph.D., University of Pittsburgh, 2003. It presents an interesting view of that time.
Your story, this paper and the many recent comments in this blog have all helped me gain a better understanding of what West Virginia was, why West Virginia is the way it is, why I left and why I long to return knowing full well that I ‘can never go home again’.
The author was also a student of Kanawha County schools during the time. Maybe the two of you would like to talk…
July 9, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Thanks for that, RFO.
July 9, 2009 at 3:15 pm
To 70s Grad…You should read the chapter on Mother Jones in Loughry’s (sp?) book “Don’t Buy Another Vote….” I thought I knew a lot about that time period of our state’s history until I read that. It then inspired me to read more books about that period. The movie Matewan is also pretty good. My parents weren’t miners and I am thankful for that given the incredibly harsh conditions at that time. I just cannot imagine doing that work back then. The people were completely expendable. It is quite a depressing history as many of these people were enslaved in small pockets of the state that many people didn’t even know existed due to the geography and lack of transportation system during the latter part of the 1800s and early 1900s. The only way in and out of many of these areas was by train. It is a history that we all should know about. I just don’t know if there are any Mother Joneses anymore who are willing to put it all on the line like she did.
July 9, 2009 at 6:51 pm
‘bot: I’m guessing you’re referring to the Lindsay Lohan comment. But, even if you aren’t, you, of course, as always, are most welcome.
July 9, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Hey Redneck, I have those days as well. Maybe because the weather sucks so much around here that when we have a glorious day we appreciate it in a way that would puzzle the southern states. I also like your profound ambivalence comment…pretty insightful I’d say.
Original WV Native: It’s sad that most people don’t know that most of what we take for granted today as employees with OSHA and protective laws, owe everything to those early union organizers who really put their lives on the line. People turned on the unions when they became as corrupt as the operators who paid in script. I remember how divided my coal camp community was when Jock Yablonski (sp?) was murdered.
TT: I know a lot of the Morgantown Gen Next people (some are former students) and there are some really great young people who are trying to have what I have: a good job in a livable community.
HK: we’re not the only state that mourns the loss of our young people but it’s more pronounced because we don’t have any new folks coming in.
Can’t wait to see the thread on the fear of protestors at the theater in Charleston today.
July 9, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Native2: thank you, and I won’t to say something less cynical about Next Gen and TT’s comments about it. Well, Lewisburg is the shining example of Next Gen’s vision, and then there’s Elkins, which has some elements of that. So, that to me means that you’ve got to have huge, regular infusions of “touristy” cash and/or a college of some sort. Where you have that and have a motivated group of smart people, it can be built on.
But that doesn’t describe most of WV. But still, if that’s where Next Gen wants to go, more power to’em.
As for that video up there, I don’t hate Romper Stomper and his drunk coven of redneck chicks. I know him or someone just like him. Like most any other native West Virginian, somewhere back in the family tree, I’m related to him, or someone just like him. He’s fucked and he knows it. He has nothing but that job. Where else is he gonna get paid $50,000-$60,000 a year, especially in this economy.
That being said, someone’s gonna get killed down in southern West Virginia over this MTR controversy. And all of these well-intentioned liberals on places like Daily Kos need to take a serious look at that video, because it puts disturbingly human faces on what to many of them is “an issue”–in other words, an abstraction.
July 9, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Thanks WV Native – I will try to find the book you suggest. I appreciate it.
Rednecks for Obama – one of the things those of us who live out of state can do is educate others about the real working people who are threatened in the coal mining areas, on both sides of the issue. I try to do that. People who don’t understand coal communities can’t begin to understand why people would fight, and maybe kill, to keep such jobs, on the one hand, or to defend the land to which they are all so connected, on the other. When I try to explain the conditions encountered in rural coal country, people in my adopted state look at me as if I am from another planet.
We surely do need a solution that is not a zero sum.
July 9, 2009 at 9:00 pm
@ David Mitchell
I came across Dr. Mason’s paper when I was doing my research for the novel. I think she has a point – racial tensions, and sometimes outright bigotry, were significant factors in the controversy. But I think those who were interested in the textbooks for political reasons used race issues as a tool to inflame certain elements in their coalition. It was not about race, it was about social control, with race used as one of the tools of provocation.
July 9, 2009 at 9:04 pm
RFO: Your descriptions are exceptional & beautiful. Who could blow up a West Virginia mountain for money? As for your love-hate relationship: you sound like somebody in love.
July 9, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Great and moving stories everyone.
Sometimes I think WV has lojacked my heart and brain.
When people talk about economic development, most of us, myself included, ususally contrast WV to NC. A better comparison might be Kentucky or Tennessee. States that are closer to WV in terms of geography, culture, and industry than NC.
July 9, 2009 at 10:40 pm
There were bunches of cool things I wanted to say in response to 70s Grad, Jolene and others, but…I’m watching Keith Olbermann just now, and I’m tired.
So, instead, I propose this: a summer get-together of the Fifth Column regulars and this site’s many fellow travelers:
Saturday night at the Cultural Center theater in the State Capitol Center complex, for the free 8 pm screening of the “Coal Country” documentary.
http://wvgazette.com/News/200907090437
July 9, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Good point pumpkin. The Atlantic Coast states have ports, major cities, and military bases. KY & Tenn are landlocked, mountainous, and have independent streaks. I guess we focus on NC because we know so many people who live there :-)
So I watched that Mountain Madness video and that was depressing. Thought I saw a few people I knew but I think they just look like people I went to high school with.
Many have focussed on the negative here but so far WV is weathering this recession a little better than other states.
July 10, 2009 at 7:21 am
While many of the comments here have been about conditions in the coal mining regions of WV, a short novel worth your attention is Rebecca Harding Davis’ 1861 work, Life in the Iron Mills, set in Wheeling in the 1800s.
Originally published in the Atlantic Monthly in 1861, it was reprinted in the early 1970s by the Feminist Press with a wonderful introduction by Tillie Olsen. Davis was heralded as one of the first American realists. Her father was treasurer of the City of Wheeling.
Go to Amazon and read the first page. I bet you’ll want to read the rest. (And if you are new to Tillie Olsen’s work, I commend her to you as well.)
I was introduced to the novel at WVU in a Women’s Literature course at the time it was reprinted in the early 70s. (Thanks, WVU!)
July 10, 2009 at 8:26 am
@ CP – I agree…
July 10, 2009 at 8:33 am
Thanks for that tip, 70sGrad.
That book describes my origins, and there were no goons to harass to cling to any way of life. The work force consisted of immigrant labor, and now the mills are closed – across 3 states. There is both adaptation and blight throughout. My parent’s home town is frozen in time, a rusted mill, the company housing still there, closed stores. But folks still live there and the town limps along.
I hate to say it as a WV native, but I am able to understand any eastern European accent easier than a southern coal field accent. That’s how different things can be within WV. So I guess that’s another form of ambivalence about what’s happening. It is probably why I am glad I started blogging on Fifth Column. I just try to bloom where I’m planted, trite as that is.
I also get to teach college students from many states, and there are numerous other economic obstacles of other flavors abounding everywhere. WV’ans who are locked in have difficulty seeing the big picture.
And then, when we considered buying a house not far from Morgantown, all the realtors warned that we “would not be accepted.” That, too, is very real. It’s strange to be a native and an “other” at the same time, and that is because of our education. If we are content with our income and status in WV, education has made us foreign to our native state. It’s as if all factions feel like they just can’t ever win.
July 10, 2009 at 9:13 am
Steph, I hate to tell you this, but those realtors are right. It has been very painful to move back to WV after 2+ decades in the outside world. I thought I was coming home, but everybody else has made it clear that I’m an outsider and a traitor for having ever left at all.
West Virginia’s biggest problem is the decades-long brain drain. Those who stayed here — present company excluded, of course — have been so thoroughly brainwashed by Big Coal and its minions that they think that the way things work in WV is how it’s supposed to be.
July 10, 2009 at 10:15 am
Agreed, SilentMajority -
We did not buy that house, BTW. But even in the “city,” many of the old folks would not even eat in certain establishments because they were “not places for the working people.” I could never tell if it was their caste system, or just finances. I feel fortunate to have had parents who did not teach us that we were poor or lacking in any way, and we certainly did not suffer. I really cannot account for their complete lack of prejudice, but we were beneficiaries. I also feel that my education at more than one state school was excellent.
BTW – welcome back, traitor; glad to have you!
July 10, 2009 at 11:54 am
A friend who went to high school with me in Kanawha County just emailed me that the 1974 school book protesters are having a reunion with Alice Moore as keynote. Anyone heard anything to confirm that???
July 10, 2009 at 11:58 am
Jeez, leave HK’s site for a few days & you miss a ton of interesting conversation. One quibble with Redneck, though. WV has a number of good fiction writers: Mary Lee Settle, Keith Maillard, Denise Giardina, Pinckney Benedict, Chuck Kinder, Davis Grubb (just to name a few).
July 10, 2009 at 12:26 pm
You can find Life in the Iron Mills for free here. It’s pretty interesting.
July 10, 2009 at 3:21 pm
RFO, I agree that someone is gonna get killed. I didn’t doubt Don Blankenship for a moment when he told that ABC camerman “if you’re gonna start taking pictures of me you’re liable to get shot”
I hope nobody dies, and I certainly would hate to see the southern coalfields turn into some kind of battleground for E.L.F. type ecoterrorism. That would do nothing to advance conversation regarding the future of our state.
Its a myopic view the actual miners and supporters take, but its not hard to understand. The argument is still shaped as “tree huggers vs our jobs” Its evident in that video. “Go home treehuggers” The idea that those people ARE home is lost on those guys. I don’t know exactly why that persists, but it does. Maybe when the companies perfect remote operated equipment, and the machines are run from Karachi, more local workers will see that big coal is on nobody’s side but its own. (Ha, drones run by folks here blow them up, and draglines run by them screw us over)
I think you can, and maybe should set aside the climate change argument completely. We need to reign in coal for lots of other reasons. Increased flooding, polluted run off, poisoned wells, sketchy slurry lakes, air pollution from the power plants, the list goes on. WV exports people, power and resources, and gets very little in return.
July 10, 2009 at 4:04 pm
When there’s a protest and almost every single protester is some sort of out-of-state college kid on summer vacation, that troubles me.
July 10, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Gordon, I know your list wasn’t all-inclusive but Jayne Ann Phillips has to be mentioned. She is one amazing WV writer.
July 10, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Yes, Jolene, count me among Jayne Ann’s fans, too. Wonderful. Also Maggie Anderson.
Lawbot, thanks for posting the link to the free Life in the Iron Mills.
July 10, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Fruit Salad???????????????
July 10, 2009 at 7:54 pm
I was in school at WVU with Jayne Ann, then went to a couple of her book signings/readings in New York, after Machine Dreams came out.
I’m sorry to say I haven’t read every one on Gordon’s rather comprehensive list, but Phillips and Kinder certainly are important American literary voices.
The best West Virginia prose stylist, hands down, that I’ve ever read, though is the late John O’Brien, author of the Pultizter Prize nominated for nonfiction, At Home in the Heart of Appalachia (published by Alfred A. Knopf, no less).
I’m sad for John’s untimely demise (stomach cancer) just as he’d been “discovered.” In nonfiction, I believe, had John lived, he would have done in a contemporary nonfiction setting for WV and central Appalachia what Faulkner did for his fictional Yoknapatawpha County. Although John was also a fictionalist.
http://www.amazon.com/Home-Heart-Appalachia-John-OBrien/dp/0385721390
July 10, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Gotta talk about John for a minute. He brought me a copy of his book when it came out. I’d not met him before, but I knew of him as this skulking, brooding, peripatetic presence on the streets of this sleepy county seat. I knew who his wife, a local school teacher, was, from where I’d grown up. She was a high school contemporary of my brother and his then girlfriend eventual wife.
I noted the publisher, one of the most prestigious in the world, and started reading. Stayed up damn near all bleary-eyed night. Said to myself: The heavy influences were James “Upon Hearing A Rumor That The Oldest Whorehouse in Wheeling, WV, Has Been Condemned” Wright, Robert Bly and, it seemed, late T. S. Eliot (“Four Quartets”).
The next day, John visited me at the office. I took him into my back-alley “atrium office” (where I can smoke, pace and gesticulate intensely), I said, “Look, I was at WVU in the early ’70s, just after you’d moved on. The big teachers for creative writing then were Lloyd Davis and Winston Fuller. I was a buddy of Lloyd’s. So, I can hear two powerful influences from the Morgantown scene in those days in your writing: Wright and Bly.
John, nodding, then said, and I kid you not, “And the TS Eliot of Four Quartets.”
John shortly wrote about this back-alley exchange (his description nailed me perfectly) in the Gazette. He subsequently was taken up by the New York Times, where he published an outraged op-ed when CBS proposed to do a Beverly Hillbillies reality TV show. You know, pick some ‘necks from WV or KY, give’em some money, put’em in a Beverly Hills mansion…
One of John’s (several) big themes in “At Home” is his controversial take on how “mythical Appalachia” came to be inscribed in our national consciousness. John is relentless in training his guns on outside-the-state “missionaries,” earnest, well-intentioned, institutional do-gooders who came to the state to save these poor, savage hillbillies from themselves.
And it’s all written with some of the most beautifully cadenced prose you’ll ever encounter anywhere.
And within a few years of the book’s publication, John was gone.
This I can comfortably assert, though: he would have loved Hippie Killer’s Fifth Column.
July 10, 2009 at 10:37 pm
When I first moved here, I was struggling to get a handle on my new home. I happened upon a book in the library by some English professor that had “gone away” and then moved back to Franklin WV. It was pretty good. His grandfather had taken poison, slit his wrists and shot himself one day after work.
I can’t remember the title or the author.
Anybody know it?
July 10, 2009 at 11:59 pm
RFO, I didn’t know John O’Brien passed away — I read At Home in the Heart of Appalachia last August and enjoyed it.
July 11, 2009 at 5:55 am
$.02: John & his family were living in Franklin during the years he gestated, wrote and found a major New York publisher for “At Home,” and a major sub-plot in the book is his troubled relationship with his blue-collar WV dad, who was from Mineral County but had moved to Philly to, typically, find work. Some of the other details there sound a little bit off, but, yeah, you’re talking about O’Brien.
observer: yeah. John had come into his own. Big league publisher, glowing national and regional reviews, Pulitzer nomination, growing acclaim & budding national recognition and…Boom.
“At Home” should be required reading in WV.
July 11, 2009 at 6:51 am
Thanks so much, RforO -
I found a review of the book, and in the contents of the WVU Alumni magazine was another piece by O’Brien.
http://www.ia.wvu.edu/~magazine/issues/spring2002/htmlfiles/contents.html
Now I’m several books behind, but Cyberpaw’s is first on the list.
July 11, 2009 at 8:00 am
I didn’t know about John’s death. That’s a shame.
And after years of scoffing at Loughrey’s book, I seem to open it from time to time to remind myself that people I had respected have some unfortunate baggage.
Jayne Ann Phillips’ last book was worth a read. I picked up the new Denise Giardina, but no time to read, and yes, Cyberpaw’s is high on the list.
July 11, 2009 at 8:08 am
Listeing to NPR this morning reminds me of another favorite WV writer that people don’t often associate with our state. Henry Louis Gates Jr.’s memoir “Colored People” is a pretty good read about growing up in Piedmont, WV.
July 11, 2009 at 9:58 am
Yeah, “Colored People” is terrific. I used to live in DC and the bookstore Politics and Prose had Gates in to do a reading when CP first came out. The place was absolutely packed — and completely full of WV ex-pats. When Gates stepped to the microphone, he pointed out that half the people in the room were wearing some sort of WV T-shirt and asked how many of us were WVans. The place went wild. The somewhat snotty co-owners, Barbara and Carla, were nonplussed. They started to intervene, but Gates waved them off. He let the cheering go on for a couple of minutes, grinning, then sobered up and made an emotional speech about how sad it was that circumstances in WV were such that we were all in DC. He’s also married to a WV girl, from ?Wyoming County? and they have daughters who spent lots of summers in WV growing up. His nickname growing up was “Skippy” and he told the crowd that as West Virginians, we are all permitted/encouraged to address him as Skippy. That’s not permitted at Harvard :o)
Gates is a very interesting character. He has made himself into the leading African American scholar in the country and uses his celebrity and position in some intriguing ways. If you have never seen the PBS series he did a couple of years ago on how some black Americans long to know more about their African ancestry, you should. He took 6 black American celebrities (Oprah, the astronaut Mae Jemison, Chris Tucker, can’t remember who else) and did genetic testing on them to determine where their ancestors came from. Oprah badly wanted to be from South Africa, but she isn’t. Her ancestors apparently came from Liberia or thereabouts. Mae Jemison turned out to be more Native American than Africa. Gates himself turned out to be about 75% Scots-Irish (like all West Virginians) and he didn’t quite know what to make of that. Chris Tucker turned out to be 100% Angolan. He and Skippy then went to Angola for a very emotional visit. It makes for compelling viewing.
July 11, 2009 at 10:01 am
Thank you, Steph, for that link, and thanks to TT for the recommendation of Phillips’s most recent book. I knew the buzz was good, but now someone with an opinion I really put stock in has … just sold a copy for her.
Now, back to MTR and the political lay of the land these days. Big opening now on the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals (Richmond), generally considered the most conservative fed bench in the country, the one where MTR rulings such as the late Chuck Haden’s go to get overturned:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/09/AR2009070901983.html
The key graf:
“The 4th Circuit, an influential voice on national security issues, hears cases from Virginia, Maryland, West Virginia and the Carolinas. Earlier vacancies have whittled away its strong Republican majority, and the court now has five judges appointed by Republican presidents and five appointed by Democrats. Williams’s departure creates a fifth vacancy, so the court could gain a 10 to 5 Democratic majority during Obama’s term.”
July 11, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Students in honors English at MHS have a choice of reading O’Brien, Gates, a memoir written by a woman who grew up in Pittsburgh (can’t remember her name), and another W. Va autobiography. Middle schoolers read October Sky — I was very impressed by the book. Cyberpaw’s book could join the list.
A vacancy on the 4th circuit is very exciting.
BTW, RfO, I think one of the English profs you mention was a neighbor the first two years we lived in Morgantown. I think he may have been retired already.
July 11, 2009 at 8:31 pm
Thanks to all, I wanted to re-read O’Brien’s book but couldn’t remember the his name or the title.
O’Brien’s book also pointed me to “The Beans of Egypt, Maine” which was also pretty good….
July 11, 2009 at 8:45 pm
I, for one, believe the Fourth should remain charmingly conservative. This comment, of course, comes from a lawyer who’s practiced exclusively in the right Fourth and the left Ninth. I’ll take Richmond any day over San Francisco.
July 12, 2009 at 12:19 am
I bought the Beans of Egypt, Maine at the English prof’s garage sale . . . it really shows what it’s like to be poor and rural . . . and it takes place in New England rather than Appalachia. . .
Lawbot, I’ve always been very fond of the 9th’s opinions — they are way ahead of all the other circuits. I’d take the west coast over West by God most days, the crowding and the smog notwithstanding. . .
July 12, 2009 at 9:34 am
I love everything north of San Jose, Observer.
July 12, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Oh, Amen, Lawbot. Beautful places to be found.
Thanks to the 58 of you who went to the site to read my novel (or the one of you who went 58 times.) and to the person who attempted the whois query to find my personal info, sorry about that, Sherlock.
It’s not like it’s all THAT hard to figure out who any of the regular posters are here, anyway. Sorry, folks. It’s time to out you.
Lawbot is really Denny Crane,
Hippie Killer is the love child of Dorthy Parker and H.L. Mencken,
And Gordon Simmons is actually the ghost of Big Bill Haywood.
July 12, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Cyberpaw, I was one of the 58, but I intend to go back and read it again at least once more, so I will soon count at least twice.
My first read was a suspenseful rush late at night, since I had to know the outcome. You kept me on the edge of my computer chair. My next read will be more leisurely.
All the way through the first read, I recognized the book protestors as being realistically drawn based on the people I once knew. I found myself feeling so glad that I knew them as people at least once removed from my own immediate family. They put chills and outrage clear through me then, as they do now.
July 12, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Thanks, 70’s. You’re very kind. I’m working on a play based on the novel, at the request of an out-of-state theatre company.
July 12, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Reading CP’s book, O’Brien’s book, The Beans, and just hanging out and watching the planet it becomes clear that certain patterns emerge no matter the setting. Backward-ass intolerance flourishes the world over. Poverty and/or a perceived lack of mobility maroon people that would otherwise seek greener pastures.
If you can’t escape when you’re young, you end up rationalizing the local status quo and demonizing everything else.
Naturally, it’s all bullshit.
Or, my talking about it is all bullshit.
Either way, you either submit to an established value system, move elsewhere (up, down, sideways) and adopt theirs, or invent your own.
July 12, 2009 at 11:42 pm
But I wanted to be Denny Crane…
July 16, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Cyberpaw; Damn. I wanted to be Carlo Tresca. Okay, I’ll be Haywood (without the exile to revolutionary Russia). It’ll get me a mention in Sayles’ “Matewan.” After a few brews I’m kinda Wobbly anyway.